LckyTylr

So, Andrew is going to kick me in the face, but I'm going to ask anyway.

I'm in the market for a brand spanking new black and orange dirtbike. I'm looking at one of the following.

Smokers
300 xc-w
300 xc

Thumpers
450 xc-f
450 xc-w

I have been riding a 2000 CR 250 for the last 4 summers. I notice that there are times when I'm at a disadvantage when riding with 450 thumpers, but it's fun to do the same things as those cheaters. I rode a friends 2010 Kawi 450 last summer and oh WOW thumpers are FUN!!! So much power down low, I instantly turned into a lazy lugging throttle jockey . . . . . who needs to shift when you can ride around in 3rd all day. It was great.

The debate, I don't have any other experience on a thumper other than riding a Honda 250F and how boring, no power at all. With that said, I'm really considering one of the two 450's, but I'm concerned that I'll become a dirty harley guy and spend more time maintaining than I do riding. With a smoker, there's very little maintenance and I love that.

For you thumper owners that actually keep up on maintenance, what is your routine with maintenance during Idaho riding season. How often do you have to change oils and filters and adjust valves . . . . . the whole deal. Thanks ahead.

Ming

Valve checks and oil changes will be different based on manufature recommendation, and real life situation/riding. but majority of modern 450 MX bikes will be dependent on how hard you rip, since I dont ride MX but ride a modern 450 thumper, most of the motard guys are doing oil changes after every race, every 5-10 hours of riding, or every 500 miles.

IDAHOBALLER

Since most 450s only hold 1L of engine oil or less for the entire engine, trans, clutch you will go through oil fast if you rev the bike hard and use lots of clutch. On my YZ450F I changed the oil and airfilter (450s plug air filters fast!) after every other ride (6-8hrs run time) usually and changed after every ride (3-5hrs run time) in the dunes with a paddle on. And 450s are very hard on drive chains, and sprockets compared to a 250 or 300cc smoker.

All that being said I would still hands down take a 250/300 smoker over a 450 for many many reasons.

JamesD

Would you mind sharing those reasons?

knobbyfeet

Some advice

1.Black and Orange bikes often cost alot of money to maintain.

2.Four strokes are great bikes, but cost alot to rebuild, compared to two strokes. Use a good ester based Synthetic oil like Redline. Change the oil every 600 miles if you can. Many go longer, but lugging around in 3rd gear can take a toll after a while.
Clean air filter after each dirt ride on any bike. Use a good two stage filter, use some rim grease on bottom of filter to ensure a good tight seal.
Winter time, do regular maintenance, check valve clearance every 2000 miles or every winter, inspect and relube wheel, swingarm, stem needle bearings, and use a waterproof grease like Bel-Ray. Other than that, you should be good to go and have a long lasting bike.

3. Get the best of both worlds and buy an older KX-500 two stroke or something similar. there are two on Craigslist right now. Fun bike, can be lugged if geared right, and the powerband will blow your balls off when you open it up. My buddy has one and blows my 400 and other 450's away. I am thinking of getting one myself.

Grizzman

There's a lot of good maintenance advice here, nothing I could add...

I used to own an 89 CR500 and 90 XR600. I would hall them both out for just about every ride. What I found was even with lower gearing, the CR didn't do as well for me on the trails and technical riding as the XR. But the CR was far better on the MX track and sand (dunes). Back then I used to think the ultimate bike would be a mix of the CR's chassis and top end and the XR's comfort and low/mid range. For me, I've found the perfect combo with my 650. It's way to heavy for most riders though and there are other smaller displacement thumpers out there that have equivalent overall power at a lower weight, just not at as low an RPM as my 650. I wouldn't mind trying a 2011-2012 Orange and Black 500 but 9G is a little steep. Good luck on whatever you choose...

theduckllr

I'd never kick someone in the face for buying a new Kmart Trail Machine. I've even seen me do it. 450 thumpers are indeed fun, but between the wrenching and the light weight of the smokers, I prefer them over the thumps. My 250XC-W that Stubby took off my hands was a hands down favorite of all the dirty bikes I've owned. That thing is magic in the woods. My 450 KTM Quad has been really reliable, and its got the same motor as the dirt bike. So its still worth a look.

Liteone

Hondas run 3/4 liter for engine. And a separate 3/4 for transmission.

Air filter every ride and oil change every 2-3 same as two stroke

Hands On

My mixing gas days are over and I now can't stand the angry bee's sound anymore. As people have touched on, there are very different maintenance intervals between race and trail bikes. The WR450F manual actually lists both. My own maintenance regimen for a trail ridden YZ450F is:

-Airfilter inspection and or clean every ride.
-Oil and filter change every 5-7 engine hours.
-Valve check every 20-25hrs.

thedeatons

I grew up on trail 4 strokes (small bores), then transitioned to sportbikes for a long number of years, then our family moved into high performance EFI 4 strokes with dual overhead cams, now we are all on 2 stroke engines (except for our 5 year old's tiny trail bike). Here is what i've found over the years:

Trail 4 strokes like Honda's xr series are nearly indestructable. They go forever with no maintenance, they just don't do it very fast.

Racing 4 strokes require lots of maintenance, cams and valves wear out, top end rebuilds cost $600-$1000, they are louder than 2 strokes with aftermarket pipes, and there are more than twice as many engine parts to wear out. Rebuilding them takes a lot of time, and a manual. 4 strokes tend to go through front tires because they push them through turns due to weight and engine braking.

2 strokes are simple, there's like 4 moving parts, and top end rebuilds cost $200 plus maybe some nykasil cost... They are also cheap because the manufacturers have lead people to believe they are useless and are reaping the benefits in repair parts people are buying for 4 strokes. 2 strokes are much lighter, thus easier on the rider. If not tuned properly they can keep a rider on their toes, if tuned properly they make excellent bikes. 2 strokes tend to go through rear tires quicker because they spin them through turns.

I personally like them both, but i would never go back to 4 strokes. I spent way too much time writing fuel maps, timing camshafts, adjusting cam gears, and paying to have heads ported. Don't get me wrong, head porting costs money on 2 strokes too, just less so than 4 strokes. Pipe, jetting, squish, porting and a 2 stroke is tuned. 4 strokes need much more. I am pretty slim at 165lbs, so the 25 pounds of weight i save on the 2 stroke really helps when loading, unloading, and towards the end of a long ride.... Less fatiguing on me...

Between ktm and the others: you need to ride as many different bikes as you can get your hands on before making a decision. Ktms have different ergonomics than japanese bikes. Some love them, some hate them. Ktm parts cost more, but they are orange....

I personally really love my kdx220 (1997). It's a wonderful trailbike, that wheelies whenever i want it to. I have heard great things about yz250s as great 2 stroke trail bikes, but haven't personally tried one.

Most any 2 stroke can be tuned how you want it. Eric Gorr can do wonders with porting. 4 strokes can be tuned also, power curves can be changed with cam timing, degree wheels, porting, etc...

Hope this helps you.

IDAHOBALLER

YUP, I already knew that. And I have rebuilt many catastrophic Honda CRF450R engine failures as a result of such little engine oil capacity and people not checking to see how much oil the engine is burning until it dries up and stuff stats siezing. at least they got the part right about running actual trans fluid in the trans and wet clutch.

IDAHOBALLER

I like the nimbleness and rear wheel steer attitude of the smoker much better. I like the on demand instant explosive but usable power band that to me is WAY more entertaining. I love the sound and feel of smokers. I like how easy it is to completely change power characteristics in a very short period of time. I like how inexpensive they are to maintain and modify. I really like the lack of engine braking forcing you to really learn precise brake control and for not penalizing you as harshly when you chop the throttle on the lip of a jump. I like that they start easily even after a tip over. I like the fact that MY YZ weighs around as much as a 250f but has the nuts of a 450. I like that the smoker will run at very slow engine speeds without flaming out and stalling. I like how they dont overheat as easily in the slow technical stuff.

Basically the one and only thing I miss about the 450 was the endless super easy wheelies. I will not ever go back to thumpers for off road after having many of them and seeing first hand over and over again how much they can cost to fix and mod as well as how boring a 450 is to ride compared to a pissed off smoker.

If you can learn to ride a smoker fast you can ride anything fast! They demand alot out of you as a rider but are very rewarding feeling in my mind when you are riding one well.

IDAHOBALLER

I cant stand the obnoxious sound of the thumpers anymore after having many of them. To each their own I guess. At least we have the options to choose either engine type!

CRAZYACE595

What the world needs is a brand new KX250, aluminum frame,Single Sided Fork, fuel injected, 2 stroke. The end

JamesD

Thanks you, much appreciated.

IDAHOBALLER

I will correct you a little bit on that. I think you meant separate function fork (SFF or SFF air systems) similar to what the new KX250f has. And instead of fuel injection I say high pressure direct injection (like the systems BRP/Rotax currently have in production in sleds and outboard boat engines). That would be AWESOME!

IDAHOBALLER

BTW out of the bikes Tyler listed the bike I would go for would be a 2012 300XC with the 250SX Ignition and head. Then you would basically have a 300SX engine with the 6spd trans that the XC has over the SX's 5spd as well as already having a larger fuel tank and an 18" rear wheel. The XC has the same suspension and chassis as the SX but sprung and valved a little more on the compliant side versus stiff for hard moto. The XCW has totally different suspension front and rear that IMO only works well in the tight nasty stuff and the engines are more tamed down than the SX and XC bikes. If I were going to buy and XCW it would for sure be a 2012 200XCW (which is like the modern day bad ass version of my do it all besides moto KDX200 that I love so much).

CRAZYACE595

Yes thats what i meant.(oops) Valving one side, spring in the other. Love my sons 2011 KX250f....Direct injection would be greater yet ....Anything to get rid of changing the stupid jets and having great throttle responce every time no matter what altitude or temp.

theduckllr

While I would agree that is a pretty cool wish list, I'd also point out that Tyler is rather new to the dirt biking relm, and a hot rodded 300 could be overkill. When I bought the 250XC-W, I also spent a bit of time on my buddies new 300XC-W and concluded that for my typical rides (extremely technical trails) the 250 was perfect. My 250SX was quite a bit more brutal than the 300 in power and delivery, which made it a horrible bike in the woods when things got tricky (or steep, or rocky, or wet.. FML). Damn thing tried to kill me.

IDAHOBALLER

The 300's are usually only about 4hp more than the 250 but the huge advantage is they make about the 4-5ft lbs of torque more and do so over a wider spread of rpm's also. It puts them right in the same hp/tq ballpark as 450s. If he can handle the yank of a 450 then he can handle any 250 or 300 smoker IMO.

But, I hear what your saying and thats why I like to have different bikes for different situations and terrain types.

CRAZYACE595

In my opinion, a 125 2 stroke or a 250f 4 stroker would make a much better woods bike...especially if its tight single track stuff....I liked my ktm 505/450 in the desert, but in the woods i would much rather be on a smaller bike.

knobbyfeet

Gee, after reading this thread I wonder just how in the heck we rode the trails so well back in the 70's and 80's on those big and heavy four strokes?

LckyTylr

If I could somehow figure out how to get a stealership to sell me a 300xc with the 250sx ignition and head, I'd be a miracle worker, and in over my head. I have done my hw on that, and assumed the same thing, but I can't figure out how to do it without spending a LOT of money swapping parts. That 18" rear would be nice, as would be a little higher spring and valve. But then again, I haven't been all that fond of hammering through desert whoops. I have ridden as much as I could in the last few summers, but I started on a fire-breathing overbore 280 tuned for desert racing . . . . . and I had never been on a dirtbike before. Not exactly a recipe for success. I learned a lot of bad habits, just to manage that kind of power in a new (slippery) environment of off-road. I don't know what I really need or would like. Now that I have ridden for a few summers and my bike isn't as powerful as she once was, I REALLY miss that HIT that she had when I first got her. Unfortunately, when I first got her, that HIT scared the hell out of me and was unmanageable as a new rider. Now, I really feel like I could use that kind of power and enjoy it, but I don't have it. To top it all off, my bike was set up for a rider that's at least 3 inches shorter than me, I'm 6'1" and I hunch any time I'm standing on the pegs. Not very conducive to standing while navigating obstacles, so I didn't when I first learned. Now I know better, but the riding position on my CR is NOT comfortable. I do know that KTM's ergonomics are VERY different than Jap bikes, but I haven't been comfortable on my Jap bike because it wasn't set up for me anyway. With a new bike, I'm going ALLLLLL in, and it's going to be for ME!

With all of that said, assuming that I stick with my Smoker past, would anyone care to start a list of add-ons that I should consider in order of importance?

Here's my list. It's short, but only because I don't know what I need. Please help me spend my money. :-)

Bar Risers (to suit my height)
Skid Plate
Hand guards (metal framed)
Pipe Guard
Maybe a new Pipe (Quiet please)
Any suggestions for rack systems (I'm going to hunt with this bike . . . . not ideal . . . . . but oh well).

LckyTylr

I greatly appreciate your input, but YAK!!!

The thought of how bored I'd be on a 125 smoker or a 250F . . . . . .makes me want to gouge my eyes out with a dull spoon.

A large part of trail riding that I find fun is harnessing the machine, not just the trail.

LckyTylr

This thread ROCKS! Lots of good input here, all of it. I really appreciate everyone chiming in on this. I have wanted a 300 since I first decided that I really did enjoy dirtbiking and wasn't just doing it because I felt that I had to justify the purchase.

Regarding the Black and Orange color, yes, I'm willing to pay the premium because I already have a KTM and it's a tank. Any bike that can put up with 5 years of my abuse with only tires, oil and filter changes is a beast of a machine.

I'm really leaning towards the 300, as I always have, after reading all of your comments. I just needed a little reinforcement. Now, let's see that dream sheet of add-ons!

theduckllr

I borrowed my buddies 250F for a Blacks Creek Ride a few years back and was extremely happy with how well it worked on the steeps of north trails. No one could walk away from me because I didn't have enough power. Trail rides are like that. Yes, we think we love that brute power that rips the arm out of the socket, but after a 6 hour ride, you begin to figure out that it tires you out. 125 smokers are all about being smooth and taking advantage of the light weight. For my lardy ass, opting for the 250 was a no brainer. How did we get by in the 80s with our heavy pigs? I'll tell you. We were younger, and in better shape. The last time I rode a XR600R, I was reminded of that very fact.

CRAZYACE595

Hahaha, dont knock it until you try it...Puts a smile on my face every time i ride one ....i can ride much faster for longer on the smaller bikes on most tracks or tight trails....the bigger 450s are best for me in the desert or somewhere i can actually use some of that hp. and at that they tire me out much faster then if i ride the smaller bikes.

LckyTylr

You guys . . . . . . sheesh. Haven't you realized that we are at different stages of growing up yet? I'm still too young, dumb and in good physical condition to think that I need to throw a leg over the mean bulls and see what happens. Let's not forget about the fact that I am a new Dad and am feeling the depths of Missing-Dad-Disease slipping in around me . . . and nearing that ripe old age of . . . snivel . . . . 30!!! I understand that some day I'll wise up, become a smoother rider, and be able to keep up with much less motor, which will exponentially increase my smiles/cc factor, and make young tough guys feel like floundering hacks. BUT, I'm not there yet, so a 125 mosquito or a 250F bumble bee are not stupid-fast enough to get along with my pea brain.

OFF Topic!!!

Shopping List!

IDAHOBALLER

125's and 250f bikes IMO dont make enough grunt down low for tight technical single track unless you are lighter than 150lbs and love to feather the clutch. IMO their best suited for use on amateur level MX/SX tracks where you can carry momentum and keep the engine on the pipe all the time. I have seen some smaller dudes as well as a few vet riders that could rip hard off road on 125 and 250f's though.

That is why for the tight stuff I LOVE 200 2 strokes since they are based off of the much more nimble and lighter 125 chassis and engine. My KDX literally feels like it has the off idle to mid range torque characteristics of a 250 smoker but the top end scream and pull of a strong 125 and also has a very versatile trans with a super low 1st followed by well spaces 2-5th gears and then 6th gear is like a total overdrive gear for when you get onto maintained roads and what not where you want MPH without having to have the thing screaming on the pipe the whole time.

IDAHOBALLER

AGREED!!! the 60s and 70s guys were SO hardcore with such terrible suspension and rider ergos. I couldnt imagine trying to run baja on an old Bultaco or something! The 80s bike onward seemed to me to be huge levels better since they finally started figuring out the loger travel stuff and the fact the bikes needed brakes that worked. haha

IDAHOBALLER

OK, first off you can get all of the KTM parts to make the XC run like the SX through KTMs hard parts catalog or you could go to an aftermarket ignition like a vortex or something and get the same or better results AND have a switch on the bars so that you could flip between two different timing maps on the fly (like one pissed off map and one softer map for slippery conditions or for when your worn out and tired). I believe that the cylinder heads now that I think of it have the same dome shape and CC between the SX and XC. I think it is just ignition and a powervalve spring to make them run the same. I know the port layout are the same.

I dunno how much track you will wanna ride but if it is more than 50% of the time I would say an 19" rear is better (better edge control due to shorter stiff sidewalls) but if you mostly ride off road the 18" is better for two reasons (harder to get pinch flats/dinged rims and you can run a trials tire if you want).

As for your parts list I would say instead of bar risers get taller bars (I like Protaper's "Kevin Windom/RM mid" bend and Renthal's "Ricky Carmichael" bend bars which both happen to be basically identical bends). For hand guards I only run the full wrap Cycra pro bends. For a skid plate and exhaust pipe guard I would want a eline/moose carbon fiber skid plate and pipe guard because they are much tougher than the aluminum ones and reflect way less engine noise back up to you from underneath. You will have to get a new spark arrestor/silencer because the stock one is not a sparky and not off road legal. For that by far the quietest and one of the better performing sparkys is FMFs new "Q Stealth". And as for the rack system I would suggest going with ProMotoBillet! They make some awesome billet aluminum racks for our bikes that look good, are tough, light weight,easily removable, and made right here in Idaho!

IDAHOBALLER

You will love the 300 I promise! It wont have the hit of your CR but will be a more powerful bike from top to bottom just has a much more linear power curve than you average jap mx 250 2t. You are welcome to ride my YZ and see how you like that since it is a 300 now(technically a 293.x like all 300s 72mm bore x 72mm stroke).

IDAHOBALLER

Im with you. I LOVE 125s (Hate 250f's all together!) on the moto track because they are like huge mountain bikes with a on/off rocket strapped to them but for any other type of terrain I prefer to have the luxury of some extra torque and HP on my side just in case...

CRAZYACE595

Well i weigh roughly 190 and hit the vet class about 6 years ago. I have rode many bikes including a KDX 200 wich i would say had one of the best suspension set up on it i have ever rode...I had a cr125 at the time and the power was almost the same as the 200....I think it mostly comes down to the rider and personal prefference...Im sure we can ride most any bike anywhere, but i like having a bike that i can ride fast for long periods without getting tired out.

LckyTylr

I think you guys have it all figured out. Lighter bike with a usable power band and dialed in suspension will be a very enjoyable ride. On the flip side, a pissed off dragon with one wing would be a fun ride as well, wouldn't be able to control it very well, but it would be fun. I'm after that right now. :-) Not smart, but a different kind of fun.

theduckllr

SMARTs got fuck all to do with it. Riding a 50hp, 215lb dirt bike 40mph on a 1ft wide trail surrounded by trees, cliffs, and wildlife sound particularly SMART?! That's what makes it so dang fun.

thedeatons

There are a lot of guys building hybrids on the kdx forum... KX125 chassis ans suspension with a kdx220 engine easily fit inside.

The result is 20lb less than a stock kdx220 with an mx capable chassis and suspension.

James

CRAZYACE595

Now that sounds like a fun bike

IDAHOBALLER

That is exactly what I plan to do with my KDX in the future. I wanna put the KDX engine into an 03+ KX125 chassis that is set up or nasty tight stuff, trials tire and all!.

IDAHOBALLER

I agree with you. I really enjoy the added challenge of trying to harness the power of a pissed of bike! Makes me think of how much fun my CR500 is...lol